播客链接：Design-first软件工程与Craft创始人

完整剧集：

• YouTube:
https://youtu.be/rVQoh0CIVFs

• Spotify:
https://open.spotify.com/episode/3wDZU73e6KsqdJ6nRSYVDs

• Apple:
https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/design-first-software-engineering-craft-with-balint-orosz/id1769051199?i=1000697925785

• 摘要和文字记录：